Megan Boccardi's Discussion Questions
For this week, I would like you to think about the concepts of patriarchy and religion. How does "original sin" impact the system of patriarchy? Do sin and depravity impact our culture today? Does it stll play a role in our education?
How does patriarchy compare to our modern culture? How does it compare to the Native American culture? Does patriarchy still influence our culture, politics, etc.? How would a matriarchy change and challenge our current society?
Please remember to use readings and lectures to answer these questions.
How does patriarchy compare to our modern culture? How does it compare to the Native American culture? Does patriarchy still influence our culture, politics, etc.? How would a matriarchy change and challenge our current society?
Please remember to use readings and lectures to answer these questions.
posted by Megan Boccardi at 9:56 PM
30 Comments:
Considering the role of Original Sin and human corruption in the patriarchal society, it is clear that it has an effect on the system. The idea of a ruler with most, if not all of the power is almost ludicrous considering the impact of Original Sin. If one person, who by Original Sin is already corrupt and has all the power, has an extremely easy way to take advantage of their power. Unlike America’s government there is no balancing out of power, so anything that the ruler wants in a patriarchy, happens, even if it is not in the best interest of the people. With unchecked power and a corrupt way by nature, the only way for a patriarchal ruler to eventually go is to his selfish and self-centered agenda. -Danny Wiele
How does patriarchy compare to the Natived American culture??
In comparing patriarchy to the Native American culture, I don't believe that the Native Americans follow patriarchy. According to the online reader (An Account of the History, Manners, & Customs of the Indian Nations), when an Indian man & Indian woman were married, they were not contracted for life. If either one was dissatisfied with their marriage, that person could abandon the other. Both each have their own duties. The man is to provide a house for the family & is supposed to go out and hunt to provide the food. The woman goesout and fetches firewood, tills the ground, sow & reap the grain, bake bread, & etc. When the couple is first married, the man does everythinig he can to please his wife. In patriarchy though, the woman does everything she can to please the husband. With the Native Americans, it's like they're both equal. The man does not have authority over the whole house.
Patriarchy in our modern culture has worn off greatly. It still influences out culture, just not as heavily. We no longer bow before our parents or talk to them using sir or ma'am. We still show them respect but in different manners. The man of the household is now not always the one with the job. Many women today in our society work to help support their family as well as the men. With the divorce rate so high in the United States a matriarchy is quite common. The children generally are able to spend time with their father for a week and the mother for the other week. Whether a patriarchy or matriarchy our society is still able to flourish and become prosperous.
-Patrick Mosley-
Original sin impacts a Patriarchy far more. To have complete power in an "immoral" world leads one to make very immoral decisions. Patriarchy on all levels of the word exists much less today.
Patriarchy was expressed all over Europe, during the early modern ages. All families were extremely religious and lived by the Bible. One of the main readings that was important to these families was the creation of man and woman and the original sin. The doctrine of original sin (Adam and Eve) states the “facts” that all human beings are born with depravity. The families of early modern Europe believed that women were corrupted, because Eve took a bite of the apple first and brought sin to the world. Therefore, patriarchy was enforced.
Sin and depravity impact our culture today. Sin and depravity is displayed in the movies and TV shows that we watch; and also, in the music that we listen to. Marriages are destroyed everyday due to sin. Also, all prisoners are in jail, because they’ve sinned in some way. Sin and depravity is all around us and it is hard to keep out of our lives.
The "original sin" is constructed to picture women as the inferiors and those that seduce men. The story warns men not to be seduced and make sure women are kept from committing acts of evil.
As long as their is religion there will be sin and depravity. Sin is only considered a sin because it is God's laws. Sin still exists in our culture because there are always things that considered wrong and evil, the education from when we grown up by our parents teach us about what is right and wrong. Sin is a biased assumption from evil and good. Our parents, teachers, and everyone else tell us whether something is right or wrong.
Patriarchy still exists in our world even though it is well concealed. The men are still considered head of the household, men often get paid more than women, and men are usually held in higher respect than women. Patriarchy is still a factor in our lives. Native American's have a completely different style and do not use patriarchy very well. The women actually have as much freedom as the men do. The two genders do different chores and activities; such as, the men hunting and women farming, but they all have the freedom. Also, the men must appease their wives during the marriage.
Matriarchy would definitely change our society. It would basically be a backwards world where the men are the ones who have to go through the struggles of being "inferior". Many religions would be totally against it. The man would not be the head of the house and the women would be the one who has the job that takes care of the family. In the end though, a little matriarchy is good as it shows how the opposite would be.
Today, original sin is not considered to be as bad as it used yo be because partiarchy is not the same as it once was. Sin and depravite both impact our culture but, today it is punishable by law. Our parents and role models educate rules and guidelines to us even today. Parental control varys in different societys today, some are not strict at all while some are as strick as or even stricter then native american culture. It wouldn't be that hard for a matriarchy to challenge our current society because the people have rights these doys.
When the English came over to America, they brought their ideas of patriarchy with them, in the family sense. The man was the head of the household. The woman's job was to take care of the children and cook and clean, while the husband made a living. The wife and children did not dare disrespect the man of the household. However, Native Americans did not share this piece of English culture. According to "Two Land Deeds from Maine" in "The World Turned Upside Down," women in the Abenaki society were able to own and sell land of their own. On page 84 it is stated that "We know little or nothing about Uphannu...but the fact that she sold a tract of land at Blue Point...reveals something about the role of women in seventeenth-century Abenaki society." Also, women in most Native American soceities were able to have a little more control over their own lives. They were not constantly under the rule of a husband. In fact, many English women who were captured by Indians from their own towns preferred their new lives. When given a chance to return to their English families, they chose to stay with their adoptive Native American family.
In terms of government, the English were used to having a traditional patriarchy. They came from a country with one King to rule all of the people. Native Americans society's had chiefs, but also had councils to discuss concerns and problems involving their people. The Natives were not under the powerful rule of just one person.
Original Sin impacts the system of patriarchy, because as we discussed in class, women and children were thought to be born most evil and needed to be watched closely. Women and children were to always be submissive to men. Men were to always keep control of the children and their wives. Due to the fact that Eve was the person who persuaded Adam to eat of the Forbidden Fruit, people were taught that all women were evil. Fathers taught their sons that women were deceptive. This sort of idea can be seen in many early literature include the Canterbury Tales. The stories were meant to teach some moral lesson. For example, in Chaucer’s The Merchant’s Tale, the woman deceives her husband, and he does not come to realize this until he again sees what she has done to him. This example shows that the idea of women being evil dates back toward the 1300’s. Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote a book in 1898 entitled The Scarlet Letter that is an example of the puritan way of life. The book labels women as evil and even if the man was at fault, the woman would be labeled the temptress and she would be guilty. The main female, Hester, is labeled as an Adulteress, though she technically was not at fault. So still, even five hundred years later the idea of women being deceptive and evil still exists. In today’s society deceptive women can be seen in movies. For instance, in the movie Basic Instinct the woman is said to seduce a vulnerable man and kill him. This can go back to the idea of Eve enticing Adam to eat the Forbidden Fruit. I think it is hard for society to let go of this idea that women are meant to be controlled due to their evil and deceptive nature. I think it is a common theme throughout history and will continue to be seen in modern life.
Personally, i dont think patriarcy playes a big role in the native American's culture. After reading the "Defense of Indian marriage practices and gender roles" It explained how a marriage only lasted as long as both individuals saw fit.
Patriarchy with Original Sin just doesn't work. Since all people are born with Original Sin giving one person all the power is a very dangerous thing. The person in charge will just want more and won't stop until they get it. In chapter 2 it explained how settlers would just invade indian territory looking for gold, once they found out there wasn't any gold they captured indians and sold them into slavery.
how could original sin make women and children inherently evil, because if they were why wouldn't they just kill them like the salem witch trials since the witchs were evil.
nicholas wood
As stated by a few of the comments before this, it is clear that patriarchy can be easily related to the "original sin" of adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit and being thrown out of Eden. In the story it was Eve who gave Adam the apple and seduced him into eating it, which then caused God to be angered with them and make their lives much more difficult. Patriarchy is based on a leader controlling others, that leader being a man. Because of the "original sin", women are seen as evil and needed to be controlled by men since they caused the loss of paradise and better lives.
Within our society today, it seems that patriarchy is still prevalent, though not nearly as much as it was. Women are no longer seen as evil and needing to be controlled, yet it is clear that still not all women are being treated as equals to men to this day. The politics in America are still clearly ruled by men, as is seen since this country has never had a female president, though that may change soon.
I don't personally believe that a matriarchy would challenge our society too much, since women are gaining more and more equality in our society every year. Many households today in fact seem to run on more of a matriarchal system because of single mothers raising their children while having jobs. Also, women are gaining more power in the workplace, and obtaining some high positions of power, such as in our government.
Patriarchy in Europe at the time was very powerful and influential in the structure of their society. Men controlled the household and the means of supplying the family with what it needed. This form of patriarchy dates back to the original sin of Adam and Eve. Many people believed that because, Eve took the first bite out of the forbidden fruit, women were corrupt, and therefore needed to be put under authoritative power. Today patriarchy is still very common and prominent, but a new revolution is taking place. Many women in the household are also supplying the income that supports the family. Divorce rates, that have sky rocketed, are also causing women to take on the patriarchal role and become the matriarch of the family, providing for a family with a no longer male figure. Modern day society still has a built in conception of a patriarchal family, but as time progresses the roles of the father and mother in society are changing.
Moira Evens
In The White Indians in Colonial America it discusses how the white foreigners came over to America and tried to convert and change the ways of the native Indians. The English men thought that they were better than the Indians. The English men came and tried to overrun the native Indians. The English men came to be the fathers of America, to the Indians. They wanted them to be just like them. They changed the way the dressed, thought and acted. They took over all Indian cultures and put in place there government systems from home. In both cultures the men were the rulers over all, but the English wanted to have rule over the Indians. Patriarchy definitely existed in both societies, but it was a matter of molding the two together. With such a patriarch society it is almost impossible for one to do without taking over the other. Patriarchy does definitely still exist; to this day we have not had a female president. Males are constantly running the American society. Males also get treated better in some work places. Males sometime get paid more and treated better for doing the same or less work. I think that matriarchy is not going to happen anytime soon because we live in such a male dominate society.
I agree with Danny that a person with all or most of the power along with the impact of Original Sin is not a good thing. They have little or no religious background. Also I think that in a patriarchy things are forced onto an individual. Such as when the English came to America and forced many things on the Native Americans. I believe that religion and patriarchy cannot coincide with one another. It is a cultural clash that can tear apart a society.
Although the colonists viewed the Natives as “savages,” in many ways their social structure possess many similarities to modern day societies and outlooks. We discussed in lecture how great an impact Christianity had on European ideas; the notion of “original sin,” and the innate depravity of humans. People were inherently evil and without the guidance of the laws outlined in the Bible, they would revert back to every single self-indulging act they could imagine. Everyone, especially women and children, would neglect all forms of morality and do whatever they thought was best for themselves, were it not for the guidance of the Bible taught through the patriarch of the family. He had the authority to do this because he was the most righteous according to the Biblical text. It was Eve who had given into temptation and then convinced Adam that he should do the same.
This is not the case, as we learned through this week’s readings, in the Native American societies. The concept of a European patriarch does not exist. In fact, the relationship between men and women is much like a modern day marriage. John Gottlieb Ernestus Heckewelder writes that, “Marriages among the Indians are not, as with us, contracted for life; it is understood on both side that the parties are not to live together any longer than they shall be pleased with each other.” The prevalence of divorce in out society proves just how adamantly we believe in this statement. It is no longer taboo to leave your husband or wife if you are no longer happy with the marriage. Also, in European families when a man and woman were married, whatever assets were brought into the marriage automatically became the man’s property. The Natives, on the other hand, each bring whatever they have to the marriage. Heckewelder says that the husband normally brings “implements of husbandry, a canoe, dishes, bowls,” and the wife brings “a kettle or two, and some other articles of kitchen furniture.” Although they each know exactly what belongs to them no one is denied the right of ownership, no matter age, or gender and everyone is more than willing to share with their spouse or child or relative. Just as today when people get married they combine their assets, the notion of what’s mine is yours. Also, both the husband and wife provide an essential part of the marriage. The women work at home and the men go out to bring provisions home for them. They have is an extreme equality and respect for one another, for they understand the importance of each other’s jobs. It is only recently that modern day Americans have experienced that equality of the sexes with the feminist movement. Since then, men have moved away from the deeply engraved patriarchal ideal, that originates from the European time period we are studying, and seen that women can be just as much of an asset to society as they can. Most people now believe that a woman’s sole purpose is not to serve her husband. Although in the reading it may seem like the Native Americans hold very 1950’s like views of their women, I believe that their society is geared that way only because it is true that men are more athletically inclined than women. So it makes since that men are the ones out hunting for the food. Another similarity between Native and modern day family structures, is the way they bring up their children. Unlike the Europeans who swaddled their children so tightly they couldn’t move so that they would be obedient, according to Charlevoix, Native children “are able to crawl about on hands and feet.” Charlevoix also explains how the Indians do not punish their children physically and instead rely on the fact that children will feel guilty that they dishonored their parents, a technique used by many parents now days. In fact, in today’s society it is almost becoming taboo and seen as abusive to spank or hit your child in any way. The last point that I would like to make is the total lack of racism in Native American societies. The essay “The White Indians of Colonial America,” makes the point time and again that the white captives were accepted into Native families without any qualm or prejudice. They were treated like relatives, brothers, sisters, children. This view directly opposes that of the Europeans. They believed that anyone who wasn’t white was inferior to them, and it is only now, three centuries later that we are breaking down those racial barriers, the same barriers that the Native Americans did not even recognize.
I feel that patriarchy can not be compared to the Native American culture to much. Although, the man was considered head of the house hold, according to our online reader women were allowed to abandon their husbands if they ever wanted to. Also, when they were married the marrigae is seen as like a trial and coming into the marriage both the husband and wife no they have duties to do.
In our current society I do not feel a patriarchy would go well at all. As Americans we have worked so hard for women to be created equal. If we went back to men controlling then all that hard work would have been for nothing.
I don't think that you can really compare patriachy with how it was back then to what it is now. To this day I don't think that we can say that we still have "true" patriarchy because we don't have just one person ruling over our lives. We have the national and state governments, city governments and lastly our parents. Early on in history one person could control their people with the word of God but now it is almost impossible to do that. I do think that it still influences our lives because instead of one person we have the government that is still the ruling body and they inforce the rules that we are supposed to live by.
corey mueller
I don't think that patriarchy can really be compared between the two time periods because I don't think that we still live by "true" patriachy. At the time one ruler was able to control all their people with the word of God but at this current time it would be almost impossible. In a sense we do still have somewhat of a patriarchy with the government which influences how we live, although it is not as strictly enforced. For example the government sets laws that we are to abide by but there is not just one main figure. Not everyone would follow a patriarch in our society because now there are so many different beliefs. For this reason we follow the laws set by our ancestors and what they believed was right.
-corey mueller
I don't think that patriarchy can really be compared between the two time periods because I don't think that we still live by "true" patriarchy. At the time one ruler was able to control all their people with the word of God but at this current time it would be almost impossible. In a sense we do still have somewhat of a patriarchy with the government which influences how we live, although it is not as strictly enforced. For example the government sets laws that we are to abide by but there is not just one main figure. Not everyone would follow a patriarch in our society because now there are so many different beliefs. For this reason we follow the laws set by our ancestors and what they believed was right.
-corey mueller
I don't think that patriarchy can really be compared between the two time periods because I don't think that we still live by "true" patriarchy. At the time one ruler was able to control all their people with the word of God but at this current time it would be almost impossible. In a sense we do still have somewhat of a patriarchy with the government which influences how we live, although it is not as strictly enforced. For example the government sets laws that we are to abide by but there is not just one main figure. Not everyone would follow a patriarch in our society because now there are so many different beliefs. For this reason we follow the laws set by our ancestors and what they believed was right.
-corey mueller
How does patriarchy compare to our modern culture? Today there is barley nothing left of patriarchy. The father of the household in modern times is not the only one that is bringing in an income. Today, in almost all families, both the mother and the father work bringing money into a joint bank account. We do not treat our parents with the same types of attitudes as they did with a patriarchy. When you would enter a room you were supposed to bow and you are to supposed to use the most stern manners possible.
Matt Waller
Patriarchy doesn't excist in today's society, at least in American. There is not a single person that is born or thrust into a position of complete power. Original sin is no longer a viable concept either. Both the mother and father are to be respected in today's society, and neither are considered more "pure" than the other. Children are also much more cared for today than they were in the past.
Ben Farney
The concept of original sin is a long and scrutinized anaylisis of the story of Adam and Eve. Eve seduces Adam into eating the forbidden fruit and therefore solidifies the inferiority of women, and the patriarcy(or power of the males), for many years to come!
The main component of sin is wrongdoing. Many people recognize right from wrong but do not always identify it with sin because of the religious orientation. So basically the esscence of sin plays a major part in societies and education today, by the want of people to abide by laws and live a moral life!
In the Native American culture patriarchy was there but not so dominant like with the European Americans. Women had a lot of the same roles in both cultures but women in the Native American culture were much more appreciated and respected for their hard work. In the "The White Woman of the Genesee" paragraph from "The World Turned Upside Down", there are many things said pertaining to the treatment of women in the Native American Society. It is said that "Many women appear to hae found life in an Indian community more rewarding than the isolation and hard work that was the common lot of a wife on the colonial frontier." (pg. 72) Women who were taken captive were often frightened at first but soon grew to realize that their role was a much more prominent and respected one!
Patriarchy has been around and dominant since the beginning of time. Men have come from totally controlling women and sometimes going so far as to beat them(as Pasley mentioned in lecture Tuesday). It's amazing how much has changed for today. We have a woman who is a hopeful in the upcoming primary elections, many women managing businesses singl-handedly, and a huge assortment of single mothers raising their children on their own. This is enough to confirm the idea that matriarchy could one day be possible, but is not yet an ideal or theme in our society.
-Hayley Craigmile
The Indians wanted nothing to do with the patriarchy of the Europeans. The Indians constantly said “ You have your ways, and we have ours” meaning that the Indians understood the two cultures were different but weren’t forcing their culture down the European’s throat. In today’s modern culture patriarchy and sin are not as big of a deal as they were as few as fifty years ago. We have all seen the “Leave it to Beaver” and “Andy Griffith Show” where the Beave and Opie are so respectful to their fathers and always call them sir. In “Leave it to Beaver”, the wife even stays home and does all the cooking and chores. But in today’s world, very rarely is such respect shown for authoritarian figures. Women now have a prevalent place in the working world and often make more money than their husbands. The Native Americans used matriarchy to decide the next chief. They said this way they knew for sure it was of royal blood. A matriarchy in the United States today would not really change that many things. Twenty to thirty years ago it would have turned the country upside down. But now women are already the head figures of most households and we might even have a woman president next year.
Does patriarchy still influence our culture, politics, etc.?
Yes, patriarchy still has a great influence on these aspects. Even though women have stepped up and have more of a role, working, and earning an income as well as men, there are still some aspects in our society where patriarchy reigns. In politics, for example, patriarchy still has high power. We have yet to see a woman president for our country. From George Washing to George Bush, all presidents have been men. Governors, senators, all high positions in politics are mostly by men. In culture patriarchy has influenced. In most cases, men still tend to be the major source of income, while women work, but also work around the house. Children still have to obey by the rules of the household, and children with polite manners still say yes ma’am or sir, though they probably won’t bow. In summary, as a whole, patriarchy still has influence on our world today.
Patriarchy does not exist in today’s society as it did a couple hundred years ago. Men no longer have complete power as they once did. During this time women were expected to stay home, take care of the kids and basically watch over the household. However, men ran the family and decided everything from how the kids were to be raised, how the house would run and basically had complete control. Even though patriarchy for the most part no longer exists in America, its influence is still seen. Men are normally the heads of the family and make many of the decisions. More women however now work out of the household and many bring in as much money as men and sometimes more. However, women are expected to still watch over the kids and basically take care of the household. Patriarchy is still widely seen in politics today. Many important positions are still headed by men and some have never been held by a woman. For example is president. It may be awhile before a women president is elected. It isn’t that they can’t do it, but much of society is still stuck in its old beliefs of how politics should run.
The Native Americans were not influenced by patriarchy as much as Europeans. Many women played a very important role in the family. They often grew crops, took care of the kids and helped in the decision making. They worked extremely hard and were respected among men. Many women also enjoyed this lifestyle in Native American culture. Men were still technically the head of households but women had more of a say then what was common during this time.
Patriarchy is impacted by original sin because it was thought that eve was the reason for adam eating the apple that women condemned us and men should be in charge. I think some people see women as a lesser sex but in actuality they are just as even meaning they are doing jobs men used to only do and are leaders and owners of corporations. In native American cultures only men were chiefs and the women farmed and cooked. Patriarchy influences our society i believe because we have yet have a female president and they are just making their rise. If matriarchy was in play today there could be a few reactions. One would be that men would would go crazy thinking they were a lesser to women and another reaction could be that if matriarchy was used for generations no one would think any different then.
Today, we can in non way say that our society is still sculpted by the idea of patriarchy. When we take a closer look though, we can see that some of our values and others ways of life are directly justified by the idea of patriarchy but only in small ways. In our households, we still see our father as the one to provide and care for the family in rough times: to be the source of strength. Despite this general idea though, more women have become independent and the heads of their households. In the business and political aspects of our world, men hold most of the positions of power but women have made substantial advances. They are now heads of companies, leaders in government, and acheived other roles they would never have been capable of having in times of patriarchy.
"Original Sin" only affects today's society in the slightest. Today, people know what is right and what is wrong. However, the consequences tend to be very lenient for offenses so when rules are broken they are usually done so quietly and life goes on. There are still the ideals of sin, or at least these ideals are rooted in the origin of sin. Examples of these are cheating, theft, lying, and violence. But in contrast to yesteryear, where you could be severely punished legally/religiously/socially, today some of these sins do nothing more than damage one's reputation.
I still believe we try to enforce these ideals in education, but culture overrides this. Academic honesty and other strict codes in public schools stand, but it is our society's nature to live freely and pay less attention to the rules in order to achieve personal gains.
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